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she said?
There’s rumors afloat about a possible Office spinoff. Not sure how I feel about that.
Maybe it will take place in a mid-sized paperclip company.
momentum pt 3
Original post, pt 1.5, pt 1.75, pt 2
Section 1 – What is worship?
Hmmm…in many ways how we respond to this question will ultimately shape which direction and tone that the rest of the conversation takes. This is after all an open and interactive conversation and has become much more than just my thoughts and ideas.
I guess worship can be broken down to both personal worship and then corporate worship. For the sake of our discussion I think we will try and focus on the idea of corporate worship, though I think there may be some strong undertones of what it means to “personally worship” during a time gathered with other people.
To gather as a body of God. If I recall my understanding of the Desert Fathers (someone correct me if I stray too far), for those of you who don’t know who they were, they were a group of men who in the 1st or 2nd century, came to a radical decision to abandon all comforts and distractions and live in the midst of the desert to be completely devoted to understanding God, think monks, but old school. These men would be in solitary situations, scattered throughout the desert regions, but once a week they would take the time and effort to come together and spend time sharing and encouraging one another. In essence here we have one of the earlier forms of “corporate worship” at least within the Christian tradition; synagogue, that’s a (slightly) different discussion.
In my mind I hold the understanding that at least worship can and should be a place for those of us who spend our time in the “desert” to come together and reflect on our time apart and what God has been doing during that time.
Worship for me at least, is a profound, set apart time where we (I) get the chance to fully and undividedly seek God and do that in the company of others. In addition, it seems like the act of corporate worship needs to be put right smack within the frame of what it means to fully sabbath. To stop (here’s the silence and momentum connection) and find peace and quiet amongst our overly busy lives, seems as important, if not more important more, now than ever.
The questions I start to have when I think about corporate worship leads us towards questions of content and purpose of content. First let me say I like liturgy and hold it in high regard, the number of episcopal and catholic and even lutheran services I’ve been to have something almost “magical” or “mystical” to them. Maybe it’s the tradition part, maybe it’s knowing that others around the world are doing the same thing as I, or maybe it’s just the fact that there is a simplicity to following liturgy. Side note, I have really, really enjoyed the time I have spend engaged with the Divine Hours, which in a way is liturgy for daily personal (and sometimes corporate) worship.
When we worship as a community, is it about what we do or how we do it? The components of the service or the attitude/posture we take while doing them? The sermon or the reflection? The sounds or the silence? Or is it all of these? Where is the balance that makes room for those who have different understandings of what worship is or is supposed to be?
I guess all of this will lead us to our next section about who is worshipping.
One last thought, have we made the act of worshipping too complicated?
What is worship to you?
coming soon…
Section 2 – Who is worshipping?
Section 3 – Worship reflects culture.
Section 4 – How to worship (spaces and format).
Section 5 – Other issues.
sunday church worship worship+service emergent emerging+church
EmergentSoCal Nov 1
Just a reminder EmergentSoCal will be having an event this Thurs Nov 1st at Fuller Seminary. Go here for full details. Hope to see some of you there.
momentum pt 2
Original post, pt 1.5, pt 1.75
preface:
Just a few words before we get into the meat of this all. A reminder: my blog is a place where I throw out thoughts that I am having. Many times they are uncensored and not completely formed. Which in some cases may lead them to seem “one way”, they are intended in most cases for me to start to process thoughts. I hope that when we engage with them we are doing so in hopes of a starting point and not a final say in anything.
A note about me and church: While many of you may know I have more than a few “issues” with church, I have not given up on church, nor will I stop from trying to find ways to participate in and with church. Though I find myself in a place where I do want to explore ideas about church and how and why church operates.”
First let me thank all of you for participating in this discussion, even though it may be taking place both here and at Matt’s blog. I encourage you to continue with the discussion either in the comments or on your own blogs (if you do write your own posts let me know so I can direct people that way).
Second I need to clarify a few thing in regards to comments made on my original post. In regards to criticizing church methodology: I try and not to come across as criticizing, but if anything I try and take things that I notice and have decided that I want to explore more in depth. And in many ways they happen to be areas of the church that are not commonly talked about. Which in many ways leads me to seemingly be picking on one thing. Instead I want to view it as bringing up an issue that may just need to be talked about.
In regards to my needs. I think it is fine for me to bring up things that I desire. While I may contextualize them into a broader topic, it is from my experiences that I draw, when I talk about issues that are close to my heart. It is never my goal to sit and pick on something which I acknowledge that I am a product of and a contributor to, but that does not mean that I will remain quiet about issues that I want to explore.
Matt: in your initial post on this topic, you address the fact that I have not been a part of “Sunday morning worship planning over a long period” which may be true in the simplest of facts, but you know that I have had a long standing relationship with youth ministry and have been directly involved if not responsible for planning weekly services/groups. Yes there are differences to the two, but in many ways they are very similar. Also it must be noted that I do have a vast knowledge of the inner workings of church life and in my many years in working with the church I would like to think that I have gathered more knowledge than most in the how and process of planning worship services that I can draw upon for many of my thoughts.
Thirdly: I think my statement about the leading of the spirit may have been taken out of context. In many ways I was comparing the differences between many presbyterian and mainline denominations to the practices and culture of evangelicals and pentecostals. I was not inferring that pastors and worship directors do not gain leading from the spirit during their time of preparation during the week before the service. But it was a comment more about an openness towards changing and amending a schedule in the midst of a service, as opposed to being tethered to a schedule.
Now on to more thoughts and ideas about the larger topic of corporate worship and space and silence.
After reading all of the comments to Matt’s response and then the subsequent responses to the comments, I have decided to move towards Dani’s larger questions about worship as well as Tony Myles’ questions about groups (both minor and major) within worship. Which will in turn lead us towards Mary’s comments about culture. Which hopefully will lead us towards Anastasia’s comments about how worship spaces are set up and the structure of worship (and the idea of freedom during worship both in movement and involvement). (So I hope to touch a little on what everyone has said.)
Let’s break this down a bit more, which may benefit me in being able to break this up into a few more posts, so that I’m not up all night writing one uber post.
Section 1 – What is worship?
Section 2 – Who is worshipping?
Section 3 – Worship reflects culture.
Section 4 – How to worship (spaces and format).
Section 5 – Other issues.
At this point I’ll start a new post with each section.
sunday church worship worship+service emergent emerging+church
momentum pt 1.75
Matt has followed up on his response post by responding to some comments that he’s received on his post, here, here, and here.
Please head over and read those and sometime wed night I will get a chance to respond with my thoughts. So hang in there, join the conversation either here or there and we’ll see where we end up.
sunday church worship worship+service emergent emerging+church
momentum pt 1.5
Matt has posted a response to my momentum post here. I will post more thoughts soon.
sunday church worship worship+service emergent emerging+church
momentum
Even though I’ve been going to church for the last few weeks (yes, I know that’s pretty big for some of you loyal readers), I’ve decided to take a break this week.
I’m going to use some time this morning to reflect on some of the things that I have noticed about the way church operates that makes it a little hard for me to be there.
This isn’t a wine wine wine post, but more of a serious thoughtful expression of the things that no one probably notices that make a huge impact on how I (and me alone for the sake of this post) worship.
My main area that I’d like to spend a little time thinking about this morning is: speed.
Much of what I am about to talk about comes from my experiences and practices with contemplative practices over the past few years, and that core values of those practices which I think could greatly add to contemporary church life (services).
Most of this you won’t be able to think about until next week when you are sitting in church again, but I urge you to think about them and notice next time you sit in worship.
The hour of power, 60 minuets, the 11th hour. Yes there needs to be time constraints built into how we do church, and while I do not come from a pentecostal background, time limits can be good. Though more often than not it seems that time restrains or schedules lead to making sure we get everything done on schedule and in an orderly fashion (yes I know that last statement was very presbyterian). Sometimes this even leads us to rush. Cut a few minuets off of the sermon because announcements went long. Play and extra song because the offering was short. You get the point.
In many ways my discontent comes from the aspect that sometimes worship seems a little to planned. You know what I mean? It’s my “stand up, sit down, fight fight fight!” theory. There’s not a lot of room for the leading of the spirit, yes this is moving towards pentecostalism, but hey even us presbyterians could learn something. Schedules in my opinion can stifle what God may want to be doing. Just look at your bulletin that you brought home this week. Does it look the same as last week, same story only different names? Plug and play?
I know routines are good and there is much about god that is and always be, but what about that second paradoxical side of god that is unpredictable, the part that leaves us stunned and amazed, because in no way would we have been able to fathomed such a thing?
I need more room. I need more space to sit and think, explicitly during the time we call worship, not just on my own. I think there’s something very important, call it community call it the corporate part, of being with other people, but being able to be still with all those people around us doing the same thing. We all sing together, we all say prayers and confessions together, why can’t we sit and be silent and listen together, yet separate, thinking about our own personal lives?
I need time. How long is the space between the time of confession and the time of pardon? Never long enough for me. How long is the time between let’s pray and amen? Even prayer has become precise and ordered.
I need sheer silence. Why do we wear mics in worship? To make sure people can hear what is going on. But how little (to no) time is spent with the mics picking up nothing?
I think you may see the heart at what I am trying to say. I need less from worship, I need more structured time to be alone with god in a room full of other people. And then I need time with those people to talk about the things that I’ve realized during my silence. So that we may share our lives with each other, during a time of corporate worship. I also need the time to sing and pray and learn with others too, but for now I want to focus on the things that I feel we are lacking.
Yes many of the things that I just mentioned can and should be done at home or on your own, but there’s a reason that we come together to meet as one body of christ. And there’s something magical and mystical that happens when we do, so why not put intentional time for those things that (you could argue) should/could be done on one’s own or at home.
I think the value is knowing that you are not alone, and knowing that we as a community are willing to spend the time to do these things together, there’s a sense of support when we all sit quietly for an extended period of time and wrestle with god, together.
Then there’s the value of spending time to debrief with the people around you. And here’s why I still think pews are a bad idea (but that’s really a whole other post).
I know a good share of pastors, and I know how much time and energy it takes to plan a weekly worship service (heck I’ve had to do it myself). But how much easier would it be for them to be able to write into the schedule of worship the words.
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Leaving words out doesn’t mean we lose the opprotunity to have people hear about god. It might just even be better than talking about god, since we too often get things wrong. Why not just go to the source?
Maybe it’s that I expect too much out of a church service. Or maybe it’s that a good ol restructuring could do us some good.
In many ways I desire things to be simpler. Less of us and more of god. Less talking before the time of confession and more time confessing. Less time with the actual sermon and more time wrestling (with others present) about how god is challenging us. Less organization and more space to move, both order and physically. Let me take the time I need to be fully ready to come to the cup (communion), instead of standing in line to come to the cup.
Many of these topics could have their own post as we could explore the value that each element of worship has and how we can best use our time to fully draw out the significance of each.
Maybe that could be my book.
I hope this starts a thought process, it’s a lot and a lot fast, but I hope I am touching on truths here, some for my own benefit and relationship to church, but more for the benefit of others and how we all experience worship, together.
sunday church worship worship+service emergent emerging+church